Admiral Mike Rogers and Alastair MacGibbon sit down to confront what it really means to build cyber resilience beyond crisis. Moving past data breaches and headline‑driven panic, they argue that Australia’s greatest vulnerability lies in service disruption, loss of trust, and societal shock - not just technical failure. Drawing on lessons from military planning, critical infrastructure failures, and global examples from Ukraine to Israel, the conversation explores how hyper‑efficiency, global supply‑chain dependence, and cost‑driven decision‑making have quietly eroded resilience. The episode challenges long‑held assumptions about digital sovereignty, warning that resilience comes at a price: reduced efficiency, higher costs, and harder political choices. The takeaway is stark but constructive: prevention alone is no longer enough. A resilient society must plan for failure, learn systematically from near‑misses, and accept that cyber security is now a societal and economic issue, not just a technical one.